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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1487
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Posted - 2014.08.30 02:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ohkewl wrote:
I can see why you couldnt even cut it a s a renter. So your solution to counter the lower income from the nullsec ore is to go mine in the regular belts, where the rocks are alot smaller, so less isk/hour, warping from belt to belt, you cant mine while warping so less isk/hour or even better, moving from system to system with mining fleets, and guess what, you cant mine while moving either, so less isk/hour. Maybe even setting up a pos in those other systems, waiting an hour for it to anchor/online. Yeah that sounds like a really good solution.
I think you never mined a rock, in your live, or never been in nullsec, or maybe both.
Sources please. Actual cubage in a null belt. Number of belts in a single system.
Then do the same for high sec.
Then look at the ratio that the belt ores need to be higher than the anom ores to turn a profit over the anoms regardless. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1487
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Posted - 2014.08.30 21:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ohkewl wrote:
Well i didnt make the statement that mining smaller rocks, and moving from belt to belt is more profitable then mining large rocks and staying in the same place. I already know you dont make any isk while warping, moving mining fleets to other systems or even other regions like Shoogie suggested. If either you or Shoogie think it is, maybe you should get the numbers before making such statements.
No, you are the one claiming that despite the ore in the belts being more valuable, the smaller rock size and the warp times will make less profit anyway. So the onus is on you to prove what numbers actually are. Not on me to prove that time spent mining more valuable ore is.... more valuable.
Since if you aren't AFK mining you don't get affected by the rock size since you use scanners and finish cycles early. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1487
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Posted - 2014.08.30 23:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
We already have. If the ore in the belts is more valuable, then mine it. It's pretty simple from our point of view. You are the one claiming other factors make that choice non-viable, so back up your claims. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1489
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Posted - 2014.08.31 10:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ohkewl wrote:
Thats not proof, that's you just saying something so. If you say the ore in the belts is more valuable to mine, we need some numbers, how much of that valuable ore is in the belts, how long does it take you to mine mine it compared to mining ore in anomalies Backup your claim with some tests and numbers, we'll even wait till you train some mining skills.
http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore Since you appear unable to calculate exactly how valuable each ore is. It's pretty simple. If it's worth more, mine it. It doesn't matter if there is only a few hours worth of mining per system for your multibox mining fleet. You still make more profit for those few hours AND increase the value of your high ends since more low ends mined means more high ends that can be used at the same time. So.... Mine it.
You however are arguing that despite the ore being more valuable it's not worth your time to mine it because it doesn't infinitely respawn. My maths is fairly simple, and doesn't need any magic proof. You simply mine the most valuable ores available to you till they go away, then you mine the next ones. You are the one trying to make a complicated argument involving amount of ore & warp time.
Incidentally, I have mining skills, I have reprocessing skills, and I do mining & industry. So I do know what I'm talking about. You however.... seem not to. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1516
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Posted - 2014.09.04 04:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote: It makes no sense game-wise, as reward should correlate with risk. But yes, if you want to mine profitably highsec is the place to do it.
Other than you know, the superior null sec static belts also. With all the low ends and the mid low sec ores which are the most profitable thrown in for good measure. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1517
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote: People keep saying that hisec mining is the best ISK/hr and that veldspar is the most profitable. Have any of you actually done the math?
Null has exactly the same ores in the static belts in slightly larger quantities with the addition of the lucrative 'low sec' ores as well. So Null Static belts are always going to be more valuable than High static belts. The industry anoms may not be based on ore prices. But Null will always win out on potential income. They just have to turn that potential into reality. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1521
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Posted - 2014.09.05 23:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote: I guess this is what I get for posting on a mining thread as someone who doesn't mine. Actually looking at the market myself, I was definitely wrong.
It's because of exactly what I (& others) predicted would happen and we got laughed at and told it never would. Null Sec gets 20% more minerals out of the same amount of ore than Highsec (16% if we count a POS, but they have upkeep, an Outpost adds no upkeep to the already paid sov bill for the system). Meaning Null Sec can quite simply strangle high sec by pricing them out of the market on ore.
However, there are still vast mineral stockpiles which account for most of the ore currently on sale, which are now 'stuck' in highsec because Null doesn't want to take the loss (66% return btw, not 50% for Null also, unless I've gone crazy) compressing them via modules anymore. So those minerals suddenly have lower demand, only being of value to local producers, but will eventually run out, which will then result in a very sudden spike of mineral prices after the ore market has been strangled by Null for so long.
It's basic economics to predict these kind of effects, and it's also very basic economics to deal with things like ABC ores having a low value. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1521
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Querns wrote: Scrap metal refines are the same everywhere. Facility efficiency doesn't factor into it. The max scrap refine you get is 55% (where the extra 5% comes from having Scrap Metal Reprocessing trained to 5.)
Cheers, I was under the impression it came from the base facility. Not being in Null atm, I didn't have any way to check that one. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1521
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Posted - 2014.09.06 02:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote: It seems like you have lot of input on items related to nullsec when you don't even have real access to nullsec.
Been there in the past, it was a sucky experience overall, lots of tedium, inability to farm at lower skills, lots of do what you are told. And everything I've seen says that has gotten worse since I was there, not better. I'm sure you will say it's not like that for Goons, and you might be right for your alliance.
However the mere fact that I don't live in Nullsec right now as part of one of the two great coalitions does not mean I have no clue about things, nor does it mean I have no input of value to what the future of Nullsec should look like.
But hey, attack the messenger is much easier than actually answering the argument that all the ore you need is right there in your systems already, and if it's not enough and you can't import from high sec, you can always take some ore from your neighbours static belts instead. That's Null Sec working as designed. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1521
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Posted - 2014.09.06 07:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bella Sprout wrote:
Since you keep going back to nullsec belts, I have to at least point out that your scan of a nullsec belt is not representative of all belts in nullsec.
Example: Belts in -0.7 and -0.8 in deklein tend to have 10-13 rocks of each of the following: crokite, ochre, hedbergite, hemorphite, jaspet, mercoxit, pyroxeres, scordite, spodumain, and veldspar. Notably absent are gneiss and plagioclase, two of the most desirable ores for people short on mexallon. Add to that the fact that the 'higher end' ore rocks are larger than the lower end rocks (for example: a crokite rock is on average ~4 times larger by volume than a veldspar or kernite rock), and the relative balance of each belt still isn't looking too great though it's probably still better than the ratios in an ore anomaly.
Actually, that indicates that my scan was fairly typical. Since the only 'High End anomaly' rocks in that belt are Crokite & Spod. And Crokite is currently in demand value wise. As the most valuable ore other than Mercoxit. Heb, Ochre, Hem & Jaspet all have good value returns also. Unlike A & B. And assuming you are right that Gneiss & Plag are missing, chances are that because they don't spawn in Gurista's space in static belts. Not because they don't spawn in Null. Go to other area's of Null and you will see your missing Gneiss & Plag.
For reference https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Asteroid_belts https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Locations_of_ore_and_ice_in_space
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1525
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Posted - 2014.09.08 06:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ohkewl wrote: Crokite is full of Zydrine, if you want to keep crashing the already over supplied zydrine market, mine Crokite. The most valuable ore atm is Hedbergite, and is hardly present in the nullsec belts. Something you would know if you were actually doing any mining in nullsec.
Zydrine is actually showing a slight gain in most hubs atm, if you follow the price graphs. And of course I don't mine in Null, not living there and all like the goonies and their buddies. However.... Refer to the other thread for the breakdowns on what is in a 0.0 belt along with average ore in them and numbers of asteroids of a type. Since none of the Null sec dwellers crying about anything could be bothered to generate actual proof, I went out there and actually got some data. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1531
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Posted - 2014.09.09 01:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Mining in belts is the absolute worst thing you can do in lowsec and nullsec. It works in highsec because people can largely mine completely afk with the only threat being suicide gankers (which you can't stop). You cannot do that in null or lowsec. But if you listen to people that have said themselves that they don't live in null, they'll tell you that null belts are the best and are where you should be Except Belts in Null Sec are identical to Industrial Anoms. And Nullsec you have far greater control over who enters your system. And people do mine in low sec also. So.... Yes, If you live in Null sec or low sec, you can mine there. Day trippers shouldn't.
You just want to sit there denying that Null Belts exist so CCP will give you another free hand out to continue crushing everyone else. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1532
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Posted - 2014.09.10 01:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
You literally have no clue what you are talking about, this is absolutely incorrect.
But please, continue telling us about how to live in nullsec based on your vast experience there.
Please tell me how they are different that I haven't already discussed oh great Goon. I was talking about risk, in the context of your previous posts claiming that mining in static belts was stupid. Both can be warped to without probing now, so the risk is identical.
I know all the respawning mechanics around industrial anoms and the composition differences. I've talked about them in this very thread. But hey, go ahead and take it totally out of context. Lets you continue to pretend like there is a crisis when the solution is sitting right in front of your face already. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1540
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Posted - 2014.09.14 23:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:I'm talking about the universal balance of minerals ie the whole market % ratios of demand for whats needed drives market prices, imo they are skewed wrong many mineral issues have been fixed in null i can get what i need to make things except Mexallon.
The value of the rares should remain high to keep nullsec a good pull away from lowsec thats whats going wrong here. Don't argue you have mineral issues you are supposed to only get high sec ores in high,lowsec. Nullsec gets all ores for good reason, to drive player driven content That's why you bother mining out all the low & mid ores in Null Sec static belts to balance your ratio's... Oh wait you don't! Also no area of space is meant to be independent. So if you get more Mex, what are you giving to high sec to keep the interdependencies going. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1540
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Posted - 2014.09.15 21:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:Well you are entitled to your opinion too That's an officially stated CCP Dev statement that no area of space should be able to be independent. Not just my Opinion. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1540
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Posted - 2014.09.16 18:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:It's pretty hilarious to see these GrrGoon comments, especially considering we've already established in this thread that there is a supply issue.
The current supply of minerals is not balanced, and here's why:
Before Crius -Mineral supply was still slightly imbalanced (too many high end minerals readily available). The "missing minerals" in null were supplied via compression of modules, which is why there wasn't an issue.
After Crius -One source of minerals was reduced by 50% (modules) -All ore in high sec now produces fewer minerals- meaning that the supply of low end minerals was reduced (because no longer able to get "100%" refine in high sec) -Perfect refine in nullsec now gets slightly more minerals from ore than it did pre-Crius -Changes to compression have reduced or eliminated the possibility to fill the gap to meet demands
You can see the effect of these supply issues in the price of zyd/mega. In nullsec, we don't have the option to just "mine something else"- suggesting to mine in the static belts is completely ignorant and is only being suggested by people that have never actually lived in nullsec.
Don't worry- mineral supply will be changed here in the next few months- I've already called the hundreds of Goons that work at CCP and they're working on a fix. Except your post shows how delusional you are. It's still possible to get the old 100% refine in highsec. It's actually possible to get 104% refine in Highsec. It's possible to get 108% refine in low sec. It's possible to get 120% refine in Null sec.
All numbers compared to the old 100% obviously. Hence the premium Null can pay for ores in high sec to move them. The market will & is adjusting to the change in demand.
And Null Sec DOES have the option to mine the static belts. You keep bleating it's not an option, yet when both static belts and anoms can be warped to instantly that is no longer an excuse. They are just as safe, if not even safer given most people would expect you to be in the anoms anyway.
The GrrGoons comments are laughing at you crying because you actually have to adapt for a change, rather than it being changed to perfectly suit you. You have already achieved the death of high sec industry with your refine changes, though that won't actually become evident till the mineral stockpiles in highsec die and the fact you can win any pricing war buying ore really takes hold, but it's apparently not enough for you yet. The game has to be even more perfect for your titan production.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1693
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Posted - 2014.09.16 18:41:07 -
[17] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:It's pretty hilarious to see these GrrGoon comments, especially considering we've already established in this thread that there is a supply issue.
The current supply of minerals is not balanced, and here's why:
Before Crius -Mineral supply was still slightly imbalanced (too many high end minerals readily available). The "missing minerals" in null were supplied via compression of modules, which is why there wasn't an issue.
After Crius -One source of minerals was reduced by 50% (modules) -All ore in high sec now produces fewer minerals- meaning that the supply of low end minerals was reduced (because no longer able to get "100%" refine in high sec) -Perfect refine in nullsec now gets slightly more minerals from ore than it did pre-Crius -Changes to compression have reduced or eliminated the possibility to fill the gap to meet demands
You can see the effect of these supply issues in the price of zyd/mega. In nullsec, we don't have the option to just "mine something else"- suggesting to mine in the static belts is completely ignorant and is only being suggested by people that have never actually lived in nullsec.
Don't worry- mineral supply will be changed here in the next few months- I've already called the hundreds of Goons that work at CCP and they're working on a fix. Except your post shows how delusional you are. It's still possible to get the old 100% refine in highsec. It's actually possible to get 104% refine in Highsec. It's possible to get 108% refine in low sec. It's possible to get 120% refine in Null sec.
All numbers compared to the old 100% obviously. Hence the premium Null can pay for ores in high sec to move them. The market will & is adjusting to the change in demand.
And Null Sec DOES have the option to mine the static belts. You keep bleating it's not an option, yet when both static belts and anoms can be warped to instantly that is no longer an excuse. They are just as safe, if not even safer given most people would expect you to be in the anoms anyway.
The GrrGoons comments are laughing at you crying because you actually have to adapt for a change, rather than it being changed to perfectly suit you. You have already achieved the death of high sec industry with your refine changes, though that won't actually become evident till the mineral stockpiles in highsec die and the fact you can win any pricing war buying ore really takes hold, but it's apparently not enough for you yet. The game has to be even more perfect for your titan production.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1540
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
The new "100%" is in upgraded refineries in null. Comparatively the supply of low ends has dropped as opposed to high ends. Thank you for pointing out that we're now getting 20% more high end minerals than pre-Crius, further supporting the issue here that the current mineral supply is out of balance. Also, if you think the majority of highsec miners are refining their ore at "highsec 100%" after Crius, I'd bet you're sorely mistaken.
Please stop suggesting mining in static belts. That is the Worst Idea (tm) and won't ever actually happen. Again, if you had ever bothered to actually try it, you'd understand why. All rocks present in static belts are present in anoms; except the static belt rocks pop in 1-2 cycles, and cherry picking the mex heavy rocks would net less income than doing anything else in Eve. You might as well start suggesting that ore you mine is free, because that would be less ridiculous than suggesting to mine in static belts in null.
Other than the fact you are importing compressed ore now. So you are actually getting more low ends also from your imports for the same isk. And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income, for the exact reason you are complaining. You have glutted the high end market to the point they are worth less than a lot of those 'worthless rocks' you could cherry pick from your static belts, meaning you would make more income cherry picking those static belts.
It's simple maths, you simply don't want to change how you do things. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1693
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Posted - 2014.09.17 00:30:46 -
[19] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
The new "100%" is in upgraded refineries in null. Comparatively the supply of low ends has dropped as opposed to high ends. Thank you for pointing out that we're now getting 20% more high end minerals than pre-Crius, further supporting the issue here that the current mineral supply is out of balance. Also, if you think the majority of highsec miners are refining their ore at "highsec 100%" after Crius, I'd bet you're sorely mistaken.
Please stop suggesting mining in static belts. That is the Worst Idea (tm) and won't ever actually happen. Again, if you had ever bothered to actually try it, you'd understand why. All rocks present in static belts are present in anoms; except the static belt rocks pop in 1-2 cycles, and cherry picking the mex heavy rocks would net less income than doing anything else in Eve. You might as well start suggesting that ore you mine is free, because that would be less ridiculous than suggesting to mine in static belts in null.
Other than the fact you are importing compressed ore now. So you are actually getting more low ends also from your imports for the same isk. And the fact that cherry picking the static belts would not net less income, for the exact reason you are complaining. You have glutted the high end market to the point they are worth less than a lot of those 'worthless rocks' you could cherry pick from your static belts, meaning you would make more income cherry picking those static belts.
It's simple maths, you simply don't want to change how you do things. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1540
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Posted - 2014.09.17 05:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.
There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys So you are vulnerable to attack so can't mine yet have mined so many high ends the market has crashed... Sorry. Not buying it. Especially with the other posts in the thread.
This is not a game design issue. This is null sec being unable to adapt and not having made most industrialists welcome in null. |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1693
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Posted - 2014.09.17 05:45:13 -
[21] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:The point i was trying to make which i think you are all going way off the mark on is that we are talking about mining in a null security space where you are very vulnerable to attack.
There are systems and ores in place to pay this venture well for good reason and it isn't working currently so its not going as planned is it now? get it into the brain boys So you are vulnerable to attack so can't mine yet have mined so many high ends the market has crashed... Sorry. Not buying it. Especially with the other posts in the thread.
This is not a game design issue. This is null sec being unable to adapt and not having made most industrialists welcome in null. |
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